American politicians are backing a potential genocide in Gaza in our name, with our money. They are dipping our hands in the blood whether we like it or not.
I've been thinking about this a lot this weekend, but I don't know any solutions. We can't even get our government to stop killing us, how can we convince them to stop killing Palestinians?
I think this is where I struggle the most with articulating my views on... all of this. It’s callous and gross to put in plain terms, but a people have a moral and ethical responsibility for what their governments do in their names. When it gets far enough away from the present, it’s a lot easier to say “haha fuck those colonizers they had it coming after everything done to Native American or in apartheid South Africa” or really anywhere where a group of people are fighting against a superior occupying force. Israel feels like they now have the green light to do whatever they’d like the same way America did post 9/11, when both attacks were more or less chickens coming home to roost.
Have we considered the possibility that Biden CAN'T reasonably say or do anything more than the anodyne nothings he has already said? Yes, atrocity is begetting atrocity here, but Biden is President of the United States, and that carries with it a metric crapload of ancillary baggage.
What happens if Biden comes out forcefully against Israel here, and starts threatening to deny funds and weapons? Internationally, does that threaten to push Israel to align more with Russia or China? Is Israel pushed further to the right when they realize they're increasingly isolated? Are Hamas and Hezbollah emboldened to continue attacking? Do other allies start to worry that the USA won't help them when they need it?
Domestically, it's not even a question, Republicans jump ALL OVER the White House for not coming to Israel's aid and seemingly aligning with what can reasonably be called a terrorist organization (yes, I know and I agree, Hamas is not Palestine, but what's the talking point on EVERY NEWS OUTLET?). Do American Jews (and American Jewish donors) abandon the Democratic party? Does this result in Trump winning 2024 or, if miraculously not, solid majorities for Republicans in both branches of Congress? Are Jews in an increasingly antisemitic America less safe?
I was beside myself sending my kids to Jewish preschool last Friday because of the Hamas dude in Qatar calling for a day of Jihad (we live in a pretty Jewish neighborhood, so keeping them home was probably not much safer). Jewish schools and centers around the country and the world closed, and parents kept kids home from schools that were open. I know nothing happened, but if Biden even waffles for a second on support for Israel, is someone emboldened to actually do something terrible on that Global Day of Jihad?
I don't disagree that America's support of Israel's actions in Gaza is pretty repugnant. But it's not, and never has been, in a vacuum.
I don't fault you for worrying about your family or your community; I could certainly see myself being less idealistic if this hit closer to home for me.
I would certainly hope that if we send the message, "Stop committing genocide or we'll slow/stop our support of you," our other allies would take that to heart. Biden has a lot to navigate, but we could at least stop sending them offensive weapons: sure, a "defensive" weapon can always be repurposed, but we don't have to send them bombs and JDAM kits that are just going to be used to commit atrocities. If we don't stand up when our allies (or ourselves, not to absolve us of anything) are doing unspeakable things, what moral authority do we have to step in when any atrocity is committed? "Genocide is bad unless you buy American" is not what I want our country to be.
Republicans are going to piss on the White House's response no matter what, and being pro-Israel hasn't done anything to stem the tide of white nationalist anti-Semitism, so I don't buy those as being particularly compelling arguments, and I don't think they should be key concerns in whether we should do the right thing or just let this happen with nothing more than a brief statement acknowledging that we know this is happening and aren't going to do anything about it.
Sure, but once the door opens to not supporting allies, we have a capital-S Situation on our hands. If we say we won't support a country that commits genocide, then on what other conditions could we base our support in the future? No support if abortion is legal (a.k.a. "the Tuberville")? No support if transgender people are allowed hormones and surgeries? If they're not at least 80% renewable energy? If we start pulling that shit, where does it stop? There's no world where we come out stronger if we unilaterally dictate conditions on being an ally.
They may not be compelling arguments for humanity, but they are compelling arguments for THE ELECTION NEXT YEAR. If Biden waffles on support for Israel in favor of Palestine for even a second, how many headlines and news channels blare it and how many Dems have to prevaricate on the Sunday Morning Talk Shows? How does the majority of voting-age Americans react to this, and to the barrage of news/editorial coverage it would engender? You're threatening to hand the Presidency (again) to a dangerous buffoon and Congress (again) to Christofacist chaos agents.
This all sucks, I hate it, but the POTUS is as much a representation as it is a person. Biden the person may hate that he has to treat Israel and Palestine this way, as I'm sure he wasn't happy to play nice with the Saudis, but every word he utters and action he takes has consequences.
And yes, it is very difficult to be idealistic when threats to your family, heritage, and culture are baked into your DNA. My family and I are less safe today than we were even two weeks ago, because of shit happening halfway around the world. I may abhor the way Israel has treated Palestine, and may wish like hell for a cease-fire, but I will never contribute to any stance that makes it more dangerous for me and my family simply because we are Jewish. There are real consequences to ALL OF THIS, and not just From The River To The Sea.
I think you need to read this sentence again: "If we say we won't support a country that commits genocide, then on what other conditions could we base our support in the future?"
Genocide should be a clear red line and it's not in any way comparable to what a US ally's renewable energy policy is. Point blank, we're supporting the annihilation of an entire people and the displacement of millions. We have done this before, and there has never been a case where we've come out the other side looking reasonable and pragmatic, especially not to the survivors. It very often backfires against us in a real way.
Biden has agency to influence media narratives here as well. It's not like it's only the DSA and American left-wing groups condemning Israel's flagrant violations of international law; you have the UN and Amnesty International and UNICEF and Medicens Sans Frontiers doing the same thing, as well as other US allies like Spain and Ireland rejecting the EU's suspension of aid for Palestinians.
And while I understand and sympathize with your fears and anxieties about what all of this means for your family: Hamas is still firing rockets, the Saudis have frozen normalization talks with the Israeli government, and there's a mountain of evidence showing that the US's own response to 9/11 — which a distressing number of people keep pointing to as the gold standard for how to show solidarity with Jews, for some reason — did nothing but destabilize the Middle East, fuel radicalization, and reinforce support for Islamist groups. If that results in an attack in the US or on the tens of thousands of US troops stationed in the Middle East, people will blame Biden for that, too. So I very much question how either indulging the war crimes of a far-right government or making statements against genocide while simultaneously funding the weapons to carry it out is making you or anyone else safer.
I meant what I said. What happens if some Bush-y or Trump-y moron gets into the White House and he, or people around him, start getting the bright idea to influence world politics by conditioning allyship on other factors? Also, if Trump or another R gets into the White House, do they just start sending aid again? How does that look to American Jews, and indeed to all voters (the real ones, not just the ones who think like us)?
I don't like this any more than you do. I hate that we're committed to supporting a Netanyahu government just because we committed support to the country at large. I hate it that so, so so many people are going to die senselessly. I hate it that people can't just shut up and think for a damn minute. And I'm not trying to say any of this is RIGHT, or I like it, but I'm also not expecting the world of a dude who a) is 80 goddamn years old and whose ideas about the situation were formed like 40 years ago, and b) has 40 things to consider every time he opens his mouth.
I've been thinking about this a lot this weekend, but I don't know any solutions. We can't even get our government to stop killing us, how can we convince them to stop killing Palestinians?
I think this is where I struggle the most with articulating my views on... all of this. It’s callous and gross to put in plain terms, but a people have a moral and ethical responsibility for what their governments do in their names. When it gets far enough away from the present, it’s a lot easier to say “haha fuck those colonizers they had it coming after everything done to Native American or in apartheid South Africa” or really anywhere where a group of people are fighting against a superior occupying force. Israel feels like they now have the green light to do whatever they’d like the same way America did post 9/11, when both attacks were more or less chickens coming home to roost.
Have we considered the possibility that Biden CAN'T reasonably say or do anything more than the anodyne nothings he has already said? Yes, atrocity is begetting atrocity here, but Biden is President of the United States, and that carries with it a metric crapload of ancillary baggage.
What happens if Biden comes out forcefully against Israel here, and starts threatening to deny funds and weapons? Internationally, does that threaten to push Israel to align more with Russia or China? Is Israel pushed further to the right when they realize they're increasingly isolated? Are Hamas and Hezbollah emboldened to continue attacking? Do other allies start to worry that the USA won't help them when they need it?
Domestically, it's not even a question, Republicans jump ALL OVER the White House for not coming to Israel's aid and seemingly aligning with what can reasonably be called a terrorist organization (yes, I know and I agree, Hamas is not Palestine, but what's the talking point on EVERY NEWS OUTLET?). Do American Jews (and American Jewish donors) abandon the Democratic party? Does this result in Trump winning 2024 or, if miraculously not, solid majorities for Republicans in both branches of Congress? Are Jews in an increasingly antisemitic America less safe?
I was beside myself sending my kids to Jewish preschool last Friday because of the Hamas dude in Qatar calling for a day of Jihad (we live in a pretty Jewish neighborhood, so keeping them home was probably not much safer). Jewish schools and centers around the country and the world closed, and parents kept kids home from schools that were open. I know nothing happened, but if Biden even waffles for a second on support for Israel, is someone emboldened to actually do something terrible on that Global Day of Jihad?
I don't disagree that America's support of Israel's actions in Gaza is pretty repugnant. But it's not, and never has been, in a vacuum.
I don't fault you for worrying about your family or your community; I could certainly see myself being less idealistic if this hit closer to home for me.
I would certainly hope that if we send the message, "Stop committing genocide or we'll slow/stop our support of you," our other allies would take that to heart. Biden has a lot to navigate, but we could at least stop sending them offensive weapons: sure, a "defensive" weapon can always be repurposed, but we don't have to send them bombs and JDAM kits that are just going to be used to commit atrocities. If we don't stand up when our allies (or ourselves, not to absolve us of anything) are doing unspeakable things, what moral authority do we have to step in when any atrocity is committed? "Genocide is bad unless you buy American" is not what I want our country to be.
Republicans are going to piss on the White House's response no matter what, and being pro-Israel hasn't done anything to stem the tide of white nationalist anti-Semitism, so I don't buy those as being particularly compelling arguments, and I don't think they should be key concerns in whether we should do the right thing or just let this happen with nothing more than a brief statement acknowledging that we know this is happening and aren't going to do anything about it.
Sure, but once the door opens to not supporting allies, we have a capital-S Situation on our hands. If we say we won't support a country that commits genocide, then on what other conditions could we base our support in the future? No support if abortion is legal (a.k.a. "the Tuberville")? No support if transgender people are allowed hormones and surgeries? If they're not at least 80% renewable energy? If we start pulling that shit, where does it stop? There's no world where we come out stronger if we unilaterally dictate conditions on being an ally.
They may not be compelling arguments for humanity, but they are compelling arguments for THE ELECTION NEXT YEAR. If Biden waffles on support for Israel in favor of Palestine for even a second, how many headlines and news channels blare it and how many Dems have to prevaricate on the Sunday Morning Talk Shows? How does the majority of voting-age Americans react to this, and to the barrage of news/editorial coverage it would engender? You're threatening to hand the Presidency (again) to a dangerous buffoon and Congress (again) to Christofacist chaos agents.
This all sucks, I hate it, but the POTUS is as much a representation as it is a person. Biden the person may hate that he has to treat Israel and Palestine this way, as I'm sure he wasn't happy to play nice with the Saudis, but every word he utters and action he takes has consequences.
And yes, it is very difficult to be idealistic when threats to your family, heritage, and culture are baked into your DNA. My family and I are less safe today than we were even two weeks ago, because of shit happening halfway around the world. I may abhor the way Israel has treated Palestine, and may wish like hell for a cease-fire, but I will never contribute to any stance that makes it more dangerous for me and my family simply because we are Jewish. There are real consequences to ALL OF THIS, and not just From The River To The Sea.
I think you need to read this sentence again: "If we say we won't support a country that commits genocide, then on what other conditions could we base our support in the future?"
Genocide should be a clear red line and it's not in any way comparable to what a US ally's renewable energy policy is. Point blank, we're supporting the annihilation of an entire people and the displacement of millions. We have done this before, and there has never been a case where we've come out the other side looking reasonable and pragmatic, especially not to the survivors. It very often backfires against us in a real way.
Biden has agency to influence media narratives here as well. It's not like it's only the DSA and American left-wing groups condemning Israel's flagrant violations of international law; you have the UN and Amnesty International and UNICEF and Medicens Sans Frontiers doing the same thing, as well as other US allies like Spain and Ireland rejecting the EU's suspension of aid for Palestinians.
And while I understand and sympathize with your fears and anxieties about what all of this means for your family: Hamas is still firing rockets, the Saudis have frozen normalization talks with the Israeli government, and there's a mountain of evidence showing that the US's own response to 9/11 — which a distressing number of people keep pointing to as the gold standard for how to show solidarity with Jews, for some reason — did nothing but destabilize the Middle East, fuel radicalization, and reinforce support for Islamist groups. If that results in an attack in the US or on the tens of thousands of US troops stationed in the Middle East, people will blame Biden for that, too. So I very much question how either indulging the war crimes of a far-right government or making statements against genocide while simultaneously funding the weapons to carry it out is making you or anyone else safer.
I meant what I said. What happens if some Bush-y or Trump-y moron gets into the White House and he, or people around him, start getting the bright idea to influence world politics by conditioning allyship on other factors? Also, if Trump or another R gets into the White House, do they just start sending aid again? How does that look to American Jews, and indeed to all voters (the real ones, not just the ones who think like us)?
I don't like this any more than you do. I hate that we're committed to supporting a Netanyahu government just because we committed support to the country at large. I hate it that so, so so many people are going to die senselessly. I hate it that people can't just shut up and think for a damn minute. And I'm not trying to say any of this is RIGHT, or I like it, but I'm also not expecting the world of a dude who a) is 80 goddamn years old and whose ideas about the situation were formed like 40 years ago, and b) has 40 things to consider every time he opens his mouth.
NEVER AGAIN!!!
For me, not thee.
my only comment:
peace in the middle east for humanity's sake